Anyone raise kitties?

[czykittin]

I am getting into raising some Ragdolls. We raise Great Danes and have learned quite a bit along the way and I was wondering if anyone had any advice for me that they had learned by experience about raising cats. Anything would be great. Nutrition, whelping, pregnancy, even advertising. There is so much to learn and I would like to get a foot up if possible.

[joustinggirl]

Make sure that all are tested for FIV/FELV, FIP and Herpes Virus before breeding. Herpes Virus is a big problem in many catteries.

[lonearrow]

Nope, but do rescue them from the local shelter and off the street.

[cook1745]

I love Ragdolls first off!!! Second the only advise I can give is that both male and female intact cat will pee all over everything and boy will you house smell horrible!!! Unless you give them a well ventilated area just for them and CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN!!!


Good luck!! I would love to have one when they are born. Who much will they be?

[Touche]

Walk into your local Humane Society before you decide to go making more cats. Ask what the statistics of adoption are and how many are purebreds.

Just wanted to make sure you are aware of all the facts, there are just so many throw away kitties-even purebreds. Kinda like horses, doesn't really matter what the pedigree is, they still can be neglected and abused.

[Gottahavehorses]

I used to breed cats. My advise, keep records of everything. shots, wormings schedules etc., of the cats you be using. Also, I agree to test the cats first to make sure both are healthy.
I kept mine as pets first, so they weren't breeding machines and in Macy's entire life, only had 3 litters because I wanted her to remain happy & healthy. But, you can discuss that with your vet.
I did find that people like it when you can show pictures of the momma and daddy when they were small and show all their records as well as the new kittens info. They feel safer that way. Kitty bags also go a long way.

[Orchid]

One thing you may wish to remember - cats don't whelp, they kindle.

[OSUJillyBean]

I have to agree with the others. UNless you are going to be keeping every single kitten your female cats give birth to and not offer "kitty stud services" to other cat owners - don't breed them.

There are literally MILLIONS of unwanted cats out there. If you want to help raise kitties, volunteer as a foster home for your local animal shelter for nursing mother kitties. You'll help socialize the kittens and when they're old enough to be adopted (~ 8 weeks), you take them back to the shelter so they can be adopted.

[czykittin]

First off, Ragdolls are a very hot breed right now. Ragdolls, bengals, and savannahs are the hot breeds right now. Every breeder I have talked to says they are sold within 3 days. I am not too concerned about filling up the humane society. I am only going to have 3 queens total, but I only have 1 right now. Farm cats are the ones that fill up the shelters. If there is going to be more supply than demand, than I will stop breeding (Whats the point of breeding of course!).

I am concerned about the smell. That is my biggest concern in fact. If the smell is too bad, then I am going to quit. I am keeping a tom and plan to maybe put a big cage in the garage that leads outside to keep him. That seems to be the norm for other breeders. I don't like that idea however. I did see a diffuser that you plug in to a light socket that releases pharamones that is supposed to stop marking behaviors. Anyone try one of those?

One breeder also said the tom will kill the kittens if left in the same area. I have a big walk in closet I plan on using for the litters of kitties when they have them. I was thinking of putting a door on it with an electric sensor that only opens when a special collar "walks through". And only putting the collar on the momma cat of course.

One thing we found is with the danes is that certain foods don't work with certain mommas and sometimes the babies dont do as well. Shots are also a very big must (found that out after losing a litter, not mine though). We offer a 2 year health guarantee on the pups and Im going to do the same thing with the ragdolls. Not many people take advantage of it (one in 10 to be exact) but it is a good selling point and shows that you believe in what you sell.

What do you guys suggest as feed? We feed Diamond but I might just invest in Science Diet and save myself trouble down the road.

I have the advertising down I think. My boss has a $1200 camera and the best version of photoshop out there and we are going to be taking pics. She has some BEAUTIFUL pics of her minis on her website. We use hoobly.com to advertise. All of the dane pups are usually gone by the time they were 3 weeks old on that website.

Any other advice, plz keep it coming!

[Shepdog]

Okay, I have to say one thing here, which is something that's been bothering me a LOT for the last few weeks. I am not pointing fingers at anyone specifically; this is a general thing I've noticed across the board on my part.

How we feel about the spay/neuter/adoption/breeding issues on animals (any breed) is not the question that was being asked here by the poster of this question. The poster was not asking - is this particular animal breeding quality, nor were they asking for our opinions on we feel about the morals of breeding purebred cats, or if purebred cats should be bred. They were asking if any of us had any bred cats and what tips we might have, for education.

That said, my family raised and showed cats (I started showing when I was four) and so do I to this day. I raise Korats, and yes, I've won Nationals with my cats. I was lucky in that one of the top breeders in the United States decided to mentor me when I was young, and I learned from her and her cattery policies, and the way she raised cats. I'm honored, frankly, that she put enough trust in me to think I could live up to her standards.

As always, I stick a disclaimer on my posts like this. A lot of this is only my opinion on things. It is an opinion, nothing more, nothing less. It's just what my suggestions would be when a person is considering raising purebred cats.

1) First off, you need to have a mentor, because otherwise, I'm sorry, you're NOT going to have good breeding stock to start out with. Nearly all of the top breeders do not sell our breeding stock unless it is to someone we know and have worked with, and know our cats will be treated/bred as we would.

When someone tells me, "I want to breed Korats, so I'd like a cat from you," if I don't know that person's been involved in the breed (showing regularly, etc.) I'm NOT going to sell them an open cat. Sorry. Call me a jerk, but I don't want my breed or my cattery name out there for a fly by night person to sell or breed and try and make a quick buck.

No way. I spay and neuter all of my pet cats before they leave home (and yes, that includes my own mother's cat.)

2) Get into showing for a few years before you even start. I cannot stress this enough. There is no reason to work with a breed of cat otherwise. Unlike dogs where working and show-line animals sometimes have very different standards, cats really, honestly, truly, are either show quality or not. We don't work cats, or train them to sniff out bombs. Their working abilities don't tip them over to breeding quality. It's all about - does this cat match up to the breed standard, and does this cat exceed its parents in those standards. If they don't, they need to be spayed, neutered, and placed in pet homes out of your breeding program, and you need to think about doing the same to your adults.

You need to know your breed standards, you need to know what a great example of that breed looks like, and you need to know who has good tempered, friendly cats and who doesn't. That only comes with getting out there and being in the show circuit for a while, I hate to admit it.

Unlike most dog shows, cat shows have "Championship" status for cats that are neutered and spayed. It counts towards your ROM with your queen or tom. My Nationals cat, Luke... (well, when he wasn't retired and fat, ha ha) is altered, even though he would have made a gorgeous tom, I was NOT at the time in a position to keep an unaltered stud. I wanted to show him and put points on his mom and dad, though, for both me and my mentor. Now, I personally prefer showing in the altered classes, myself, and I've often sent off my whole cats to my mentor to get them finished - my buisness grabs my weekends and chokes them.

Having someone else handle your cat for you isn't cheap, though. Having them do it well especially isn't cheap, but heck, it was worth it for me for one of my cats; shows are California one week, Idaho the next. I just don't have the time sometimes to do that.

3)KNOW the health problems in your breed. Research them. Research your pedigrees; just like dogs and horses, cats have lines that mix and don't mix. And certain lines have certain issues that others do not.

4) Genetic test and disease test your breeding stock. Period. Can't stress this one enough; there are lethals out there in the cat world, and serious genetic disorders, just like dogs and horses. Like joustingirl said, there is so much transmittable that can spread through a cattery like wildfire, and if you sell a cat with these diseases to someone else... that's just not fair to them or their cat. Period.

5) Vaccinations are not created equal. For example, my cats cannot use the modified-live versions of vaccinations. I have to special order in killed vaccine for my Korats for my area. I lost a kitten to distemper because she actually picked it up from the vaccination. But you have to vaccinate and keep accurate records.

6) Make sure every square inch of your cattery area can be disinfected. Joustingirl is right; a lot of the cat diseases are airborne and contact, and some of them are downright deadly. You've never lived until you've run bleach through a carpet cleaner and your house is several shades lighter.

7) Whole cats usually mark. Actually, I had more problems with my girls peeing all over everything than my boys. *laughs* And cat pee stinks, it ruins your carpets, it ruins your house's resale value, and boy oh boy, can it ruin your relationships... that was okay. though. I didn't like the guy that much, and the cats were far more faithful. *grin*

8) Socialize your cats. I handle my kittens, they're underfoot in my house with the dogs and friends and other cats. I handle them, I flip them over, I kiss their tummies, I touch their paws and clip nails, clean ears, clean teeth, everything. I treat my cats like I treat my dogs (yup, even take them for car rides in the car in carriers) , and my cats are easy to handle and friendly. I personally don't like kittens raised in cages; it can be done, but I like my cats to be house-savvy. I have a baby-proof kitten room that they go back into when we can't watch them, but most of the time, they're out and being obnoxious. XD

9) Spay and neuter before your kittens go to new homes. Now, I know that this is difficult in some circumstances for some cat folks. My kittens do NOT leave my house until they are six months old. They are spayed, neutered, and microchipped here, with my information on the cat. I always keep my information on the chip as well as the new owner's information. I know that I can always be found, and if one of my cats was to ever end up in a shelter or bad situation, I would darn well fly across the country to get them back. I bred that cat, that cat is my responsibility for life.

10) Contracts. I can not stress this enough. Have a sales contract and have it drawn up/looked over by a lawyer. No loopholes.

A few points that I have in mine are - I do not allow my cats to be declawed. I do not allow my cats to go to homes which allow outdoor access without restraint. All of my cats must be vaccinated or have titer checks for anitbody levels. If the owner no longer wants the cat, the cat is to come back to me first. They can NOT give the cat away without permission to anyone, they have to contact me and I have first right of refusal. If the owner dies, the cat is to come back to me. Sounds harsh. Sounds like I'm a snotty cat breeder. No, sorry-- I just want them to be safe and even though I screen every family and I'm really picky... accidents happen. Even to the best of us. Since all of my pet cats are spayed and neutered, I don't have to put that requirement in my contract - friends of mine do.

I also am a co-owner on all of the cats (well, one cat) that belongs to another breeder, and she is a co-owner on the cat she sold me. Both of us have to sign off on any litter registrations that occur from these cats. I think co-ownership often is a good way to get a higher quality cat from someone who normally would not sell you their cats... not always, but it can help.

Unfortunately, as far as advertising goes, I can't help you out. My mentor has a four year wating list for kittens, and she has graciously shared her people with me when she felt my kittens were better suited to the households that were applying for her kittens. I have found, however, throughout the years that well established breeders with good stock are usually not the ones who advertise in the classified ads.

Last but not least, and this is where I try to walk a line between opinion and personal point. If you're breeding cats to get a return on an investment... all I can say is.. I have yet to break even. I never breed a litter to think I'm going to make money - I breed a litter to better my breed. It's a hobby, not my business, and I don't think I've met very many excellent breeders who didn't have a second income from another source.

In fact, I think I'm about fifteen grand in the hole, thank you very much. *laughing* I finally threw away my Quick Books program after my significant other said, "Oh MY @#$# did we spend 7,000.00 on the CATS THIS YEAR?"

It's better if we just don't know where the money went... Well, better for me. The cats don't mind if I'm sleeping on the sofa. It's like a nice warm place for a pile-up.

I hope this long answer was useful... You were sort of general and broad in the question, and I'm hoping I helped with some food for thought and suggestions on what to do, and what not to do.

*Edited simply because Dane pointed out to me I shouldn't number my points when I'm tired. *laughs* Ah well.

[Touche]

Shepdog-I only used a gentle reminder to check into all aspects of breeding cats to make a quick buck. Not all people are responsible in breeding pets to produce a quality animal that promotes the breed well.
I do know that you are responsible in breeding cats and I applaud you.

But you do have to acknowledge that too many people do it just for the allmighty dollar. I did not put in a reply to get into a debate with anyone.

And NO-it is not just barn cats that fill the shelters.

I was only stating one side of it, which seems OK for everyone else to do.
Sorry if my opinion did not agree with yours.

[starry lane]

I agree with shepdog...if someone wants to breed, there isn't much you can do to change their mind.
If they are looking to make a quick buck, then they probably will, however, that puts them in the catagory of "kitty" mill or "backyard breeder", even if they only have a few cats they are breeding. A good breeder rarely makes any money, most often they are in the hole after every litter. I can pull up statistic sheets on every litter I've ever produced, and I can see a profit on only one (a whole $40.00 yippee!). And as far as them "not adding to the overpopulation", think about not only the cats you are producing, but their future offspring, and so on and so on....You need only look at the shelters to see many purebreds (including Ragdolls and Bengals) waiting for a home. And even "hot" breeds lose their popularity, look at what happened with Chows, Rottweilers and Sharpeis, you can't hardly give them away nowadays. Pets are a lifetime commitment, what will you do with your "stock" if they lose their popular status. If someone wants to be a breeder then fine. Just educate yourself first and remember...making money should NOT be your ultimate goal. The purpose for breeding is a love of and commitmant to that particular breed and a desire to produce superior offspring.

Ok, off my soapbox now!

Linda

[czykittin]

Shepdog-Thank you SO much, you give the advice I was looking for. I agree with the mentor thing. I am pretty much buying out one ladys breeding stock and she is helping me along the way. I do not expect to have my own bloodlines, champions included right away. As with the great danes, we have built on the bloodlines and now have some excellent dogs with a name and pedigree to back it up. I plan on taking my time and getting some excellent cats to raise along the way. People don't sell a 2 year old champion bred breeding stock queen very often. And yes, I will know all of the health problems in the breed. You have to or it just isn't possible to be a good breeder. I will NEVER have a "cattery"-my cats are my house babies and I cannot imagine raising kittens in a cage. This is supposed to be for FUN-what kind of fun is that? I have thought about the spaying and neutering. I never agreed with this on dogs because I thought-and many friends including breeders-who the hell do you think you are it to tell me what I can do with my new puppy? If I had excellent bloodlines that took years for me to build, I however would do this in a heartbeat. It would add value to the bloodline. Now don't jump all over me on this, but IMO requiring spaying and neutering isn't going to fix the problem of overrun shelters. Not even close. Ya I know some will say, "well every little bit helps". Look at it in the big picture, someone is always going to need a shelter because they have to move, the new cat peed and they want to get rid of it NOW, fido bit someone or ran away. Shelters are always going to be overrun, thats a fact of life. You can't fix stupid owners. BUT if the cats are already spayed/neutered, than what difference does it make anyway, right? I like that idea, it seems like less hassle dealing with spaying or neutering contracts. By the time people pay shipping on our Great Danes, they end up paying $700 or more on the dog. I highly doubt that dog is going to be in a shelter soon.

I once got reprimanded by a lady who had a collie she shows. This is how our conversation went: She asked, "Are any of your dogs shown-how many points, etc. do they have?". I go,"well none, they are pets." She asks, "Why are you breeding them then?" I reply, "my dogs are pets" To which she gets all mad and walks off. I am sure I get as much love out of my dogs as she gets out of hers. My dogs are not crap by any means. They are up to breed standards, hip and elbow certified, the works. Champions up and down the pedigree like you wouldn't believe. Some of their get show, yes. We go to shows to see what winners look and act like. I do not show however. That is too much of a time and expense for a single girl in college working 2 jobs. Not being show dogs or imported champions or whatever doesn't make them any less of a dog. Same goes for their puppies. I am not trying to sell show animals but pets. If time and money allows later on down the road, then I would love to show, but now is not the time for me.

As far as the money goes, some are trying to say that I am a bad person for trying to make money? I nod my head at that one. Shame on you if you thought that. I am not greedy and keep my animals inside cages until they are ready for me to take them out. My animals are very spoiled. Our dogs have air conditioning in their doggie house(yes, I said air conditioning) and they get fed very well. I just gave my dog a whole chicken this morning. They get rawhides everyday. She goes on camping trips and trail rides with me often. We run our dogs too. We take them in the country and let them run by the car so they get more exercise than they would in town. They love it. They get so excited when we say we are going running. They all sleep with us. I love doing my "doggie chores"-cleaning out the pens and feeding and grooming them. We are single farm girls living in town until we are done with college-we are not used to being bored. The dogs keep us sane. When we sell the dogs we make a profit yes. Is this a bad thing? NO when the day is done, I am getting my college paid for and I have more money to spend on the dogs. The term backyard breeder has become so negative over time. I am a backyard breeder. I also love my dogs more than anything else in the world. I spoil my dogs more than anyone else I know, hands down. It is the breeders that dont take care of the dogs that give us the bad name. I once bought some Cocker Spaniels from a guy that bred them. I never saw them in person before he dropped them off. When they came, their hair was matted completely and they had s***t matted into their ears and tops of their bodies. Obviously they had been laying in it. I would've hated to see their living conditions. Two of them it seemed had not been touched before, they were so shy. Those are the kind that piss me off. This guy had no other job, the dogs took care of him. I take care of my dogs and they take care of me. That is the way it is. Unless you know the situation, don't voice an opinion. It only makes you look like an idiot. As far as I go, I think Ill be an old maid with my 15 cats and 20 dogs haha.

[joustinggirl]

Shepdog, you sound like a fantastic breeder. Altering your cats before they go to new homes. Incredible.

[wildcat180]

Originally Posted by czykittin

First off, Ragdolls are a very hot breed right now. Ragdolls, bengals, and savannahs are the hot breeds right now. Every breeder I have talked to says they are sold within 3 days. I am not too concerned about filling up the humane society. I am only going to have 3 queens total, but I only have 1 right now. Farm cats are the ones that fill up the shelters. If there is going to be more supply than demand, than I will stop breeding (Whats the point of breeding of course!).

I'm sorry, I don't normally stop reading a post at a certain point before posting a reply, but this one got me. I haven't even read the resposes, so I apologize if this has been covered.

I used to breed Bengal cats. USED TO. I had one litter, after I spent thousands on top quality cats. The reason I stopped was because, like you, I foolishly thought since my breed was "hot", that it was Ok to breed without thinking that I was contributing to the overpopulation. I was wrong. It's NOT just the barn cats.

If you really want to see a small part of the truth I speak, do a search on www.petfinder.com for ragdoll cats. I just did and see how many are listed. Eight pages of ragdolls and ragdoll crosses. That's just one site. Many rescues don't advertise there. And that's not counting how many cats they DON'T realize are purebred.

Edited to add: Anytime a breed gets "hot" you'll have a ton of people start breeding as a way to turn a quick buck. This not only floods the market with that breed, but it also contributes to "ruining" the breeds. Look at the dogs. Disney's 101 Dalmations caused a huge surge of dalmations on the market and as a result of poor breeding, many had physical and mental issues. While you don't see that as much in cats, it does happen. Hot breeds sell, so that's what people breed and sell. The ones in it for the money don't care about what they're breeding to what. As long as it gets papers and is "purebred". What about when that breed is no longer hot? Then what?

I'm sorry to say but the supply already outweighs the demand. Sure, you may sell those cute little 8-12 week old kittens quickly, but there's no way of knowing if those people will plan on keeping them once they outgrow the cuteness.

One more thing, you will have smell. If you have breeding cats, you'll not only have smell, but both male AND female cats will spray as a way to mark their territory.

Cats are MUCH different that dogs. You plan on having how many females? You do realize that 3 unspayed females will howl their lungs out every 21-28 days, right? Cats also tend to be more active at night, so while you're trying to sleep, the girls will be "looking for action", and calling for it.

Please, please, PLEASE...do some actualy research on the rescues that handle your breed. They are out there and they are busy. You sound like a great person and I've enjoyed the other topics we've been involved in. I know you're not out there trying to do this simply for money. It sounds to me like someone is giving you bad advice if they're telling you how fast kittens sell without telling you the ugly side of breeding cats....the shelter part of it. There is also the possibility that your kittens won't sell, either. It can and does happen, regardless of advertising.

If you decide to still continue with this after seeing how many are in shelter (kill shelters as well...) have a contract drawn up with an agreement that you get first rights to the cat if the buyers can't keep it. That won't prevent your cats from ending up homeless, and it certainly won't stop people from breeding them and adding more cats to the world, but there's no way, except to not breed, to prevent it completely.

I'm sorry if I came off as harsh, that was not my intention. But please don't turn a blind eye to the rescue situation. It IS there. In fact, many breeders double as rescues...well, the responsible ones anyway. Purebred doesn't mean ANYTHING when it comes to animals being considered "disposable" by a lot of people. Whether it's dogs, cats, or horses.

[czykittin]

Yes I am aware of the rescue situation. I gladly take back any animal Ive bred-its in the contract-first and foremost before I let the new owner put them anywhere else. I am not the bad guy here, the bad guys are the bad owners. Breeders can do all they can, but it really doesn't change the owners. We can try, but it still doesn't change the owners. If I sold a colt to someone and 3 years later I see it in a pasture starving, is that my fault? No I was not responsible for caring for that animal during that time. Will I do all I can to help it? Yes and that is NOT just because I bred that colt, I think we have the responsibility to help every animal we see as needs our help, regardless of who bred it.

[czykittin]

PLEASE THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT OVERPOPULATING SHELTERS. Please stick to the topic at hand and start a new thread about overpopulating shelters as you see fit.

[wildcat180]

Shepdog, I may be wrong, but when someone is asking questions about breeding in general, along with answers about health and medical, as well as showing information, rescue information should be given as well. It's an unfortunate side of breeding. Does that mean people have to come across as judgemental and say, "you shouldn't breed". No. It should be done in a way that the point gets across, the same as the importance of medical and genetic testing.

In a lot of cases, people don't think that purebred animals are in shelters. People think, because someone spends over $1000 on an animal, that it won't end up homeless and on the receiving end of that "last injection". It's a misconception that usually ends up costing animals their lives.

Such as in this case when crzykitty said only barn cats are in shelters. Now she'll be aware that that's not the case and if she still chooses to breed, she'll at least know that there's a problem and can work responsibly to ensure she's not contributing to it. Like you admirably do. I feel all information pertaining to breeding should be given when a general question is asked. Including the "dark side" of it. Now if someone asks a specific question that has nothing to do with rescues, then no, it shouldn't be mentioned. Then it just comes across as someone trying to push their opinions on someone else.

As someone who worked in rescue, I've been there and done that. I've seen the sad looks in the eyes of animals who just seem to know they'll never have a loving home. It's even worse when they have to be put down. Getting the word out, and helping to open people's eyes, does save lives. While I'm never going to tell anyone not to breed, I do hope that someone, like crzykitty, will take what I said about the situation to heart and at least be aware. Turning a blind eye does nothing but allow the problem to continue. The more people who take responsibility for their animals and their breeding, the less animals end up dying or living out the rest of their lives in cages.

You're in the pet industry and I'm sure you're well aware of that nice poster that's floating around that says how many cats one female cat and her offspring can produce in a 7 year period. Spaying just one cat can literally prevent thousands from being born. Because of that, I will speak my mind. Will I be nasty about it and say "don't do it"? No, that's not how I am. I have strong feelings about it and that may come across in my posts, but I mean it only from a standpoint of educating. And hoping for the best.

We can't control what other people do, but we can help to educate them so they can be aware.

Like I said though, there are times when it's par for the course to talk about rescue, but then there's other times when it's not relevent to the question asked.

[joustinggirl]

The same could be said about horses. Look how many of us are breeding horses even though we see how many end up at rescues and as meat. And not just grade, lame horses.

[Shepdog]

I know you were, Touche, and I know exactly what you're thinking about the all mighty buck being the end all and beginning to a lot of breeding with most people. I see it all the time, and I dislike it immensely. I do value your opinion, and I think it's a very good one to have.

I know I probably came off as growly over this subject, and for that I apologize. But it's not the subject matter of cat/dog/horse breeding that I'm growly about, it's the fact that I'm trying to point out that when someone asks a question, things will go off topic. But right now on Horsetopia, I've noticed a trend over the last month or two for folks to jump in with an opinion that has nothing to do with the question asked. The mods do a great job of catching it, and kudos to them.

Normally, I wouldn't have posted anything to this, myself, for my own personal reasons. I feel, however, that as a good, responsible breeder, there are some tips I can offer.

Whether or not they're looked at and taken to heart is something else, unfortunately, and I think everyone who's taken the time to reply to threads like these knows that.

joustingirl - Thank you. I really do try, because I really do love my breed. I've been in love with these cats since my mentor let me into her house to socialize babies when I was little. They are amazing, wonderful animals, and I'm just lucky that my breed is unknown by most people, and not one that anyone's going to ever think is 'hot', by any means.

Like I said, I had a good mentor. I wholeheartedly believe in neutering and spaying, and my breed is such that since they don't leave home until they're six months old... that's part of the deal. And if someone doesn't feel that they should have their cat spayed or neutered and wants to say, "I can do what I want with my pet" then they have the option to go purchase from someone else and not me.

crzykitten, I'm glad I helped a little. However, I do have to say, that I do think as a breeder, I'm responsible for the welfare of that animal, from the moment it hits the ground to the day it dies. I had the decision to breed completely in my hands, and by choosing that option, I'm the one who is ultimately responsible for that life. I'm just a funny soul that way. *laughs*