2 color questions *WITH PICS*

[BeckysWylie]

I have 2 color questions, one pertains to a filly I had born this year and another to a friends horses.

My horse: a palomino filly I had born this year, she is almost 3 months old. Her eye color is a strange shade of a blue and an amber color, kinda gives off a sage green look if the sun hits them right. She is shedding her lavendar hued light baby coat for a chocolate palomino color. She is a stunning color. Both her paerents have brown eyes. I am just wondering if there is something I should test for, or if a champagne coat color is a possibility or? Her dam is a palomino mare, not a dark or a light, just a normal palomino who tested Homozygous for the agouti gene. Her sire is a chestnut roan. I thought champagnes were kinda like another form of dilute, you either had to cross dilute parents that carried the gene or one parent had to be champagne. I am only asking this question because both my neighbor who breeds halter type ApHC horses and a good friend of mine who breeds cutting horses, told me she is a champagne. I didn't think that color was possible with the parents. Some insight would help. I tried getting a picture, but the eye color wouldn't show up well enough on my camera. Also for comparison, both my other 2 foals born this year, one before this palomino filly and one after, both were born with lighter colored blueish eyes and within only a few weeks both the other two's eye colores are normal dark brown colors. One of those foals is a dark chestnut and the other a red dun.

My other question: a friend of mine, different friend as the one above, has a "blue roan" stallion, out of blue roan parents. Well, I saw pictures of the horses, and then had to see them in person after I questioned the colors to her. They look grey to me. The stallion is a classic blue roan, as far as legs, mane, tail and body goes. But the head is the same color as the rest of the body with a slightly darker shade around the nose only. The dam of the stallion is supposedly a blue roan, and she is listed as out of blue roan Hancock bred hroses, but she is almost completely white with a black mane and tail and some black around the knees and hocks. Am I looking at a "normal" blue roan horse or am I looking at a grey? I thought roans stayed their colors all their lives with the exception of getting darker in winter, but not turn almost completely white??????? The mare is supposedly a 100% roan thrower. She produced 5 blue roans for my friend and 2 for the previous owner. I am telling myself in the back of my head, as to not hurt my friends feelings, that the mare is a 100% grey thrower. Is it possible that she was a roan that carried a grey gene, or a grey with roan character? Another friend (3rd friend here) that i talked to about these horses, believes they are greys as well but told me that a lot of Hancock bred horses grey out around 10 years of age. Is that true? I am not too familiar with Hancock bred horses. The dam is 18 years old or so, and the stallion is only 5 but his head to me appears a true grey. This stallion has one foal on the ground. That colr has lighter color around his eyes, but does appear to have the dark legs, and blue roan body, but the head is a strange color. The colt hit the ground a red doan, and as he is shedding hsi foal coat is turning blue with a strong "roan" body coat. I look at the stud and his dam and see grey horses, not roans. Opinions and more knowledge on how grey and roan genes work would be greatly appreciated as I do not have any personal experience or much knowledge on either colors.

Thanks!

[cowgirlspurs]

You can have a roan that also exhibits the grey gene-very possible and happens quite a bit.

The eyes on your foal sound typical of dilute coloured horses when they are foals-her eyes may be an amber shade as she grows up. If you listed her pedigree it might be easier to see as there are certain bloodlines more inclined to pass on the champagne gene.

[kaykay]

To produce Champagne one parent has to be champagne. So there is no way your horse could be one. There is a test for champagne now I think it just came out about a month ago.

True roans always have a darker head then body. They do tend to turn very white (or roaned) in spring and summer. Then go dark again in winter. To get grey or roan you have to have a grey or roan parent. There are slow going greys like I have or fast going greys. A new study shows that horses that grey fast are most likely homozygous for grey. No way to really know though without pictures

[BeckysWylie]

The pedigree on my filly is on allbreed. Her name is Count My Final Twist. I asked the stallion owner if there were blue eyes in the pedigree, he said no. My neighbors and friends with palomino folas all have turned brown already and all were born after mine was. I didn't think champagne was an option as I thought you had to have one to produce one. But everyone telling me she is one, is now making me want to learn more about champagnes. I also didn't think it was possible to get a chocolate palomino and a champagne at the same time. I do not have eye picsw or recent pics of this filly, it is raining today. I will try tomorrow to get pics to show you.

As for the grey, roan or whatever color that stud is, I have pics of him, and his dam. Then I went and pulled pics of a couple roans in my area that are roans with the lighter color around the face, just to give an idea of what i am referring to with my questions. The pics are labelled with who they are and what I am refering to. Please help me learn more about the grey and roan genes. I am aware to get a grey one parent has to be grey, but i have seen lots of greys registered as roans at sales. Could a lot of these roans be true greys adn people just wanted the sale and called them roan since they were dark enough? Basically asking, is it that easy to get the colors mixed up?

Stallion in question. Supposedly he is a blue roan. 5 year old. Out of a roan dam and all the dam's side of the pedigree is "roan". Here he is:



Here is the above stud's dam. She is like 18 or so, and is supposedly a :blue roan" and is a 100% "blue roan" producer. Her pedigree has a lot of Hancock horses in it. Here she is:


Here is another stallion owned by the same owner as the above stud and mare. Completely unrelated to the two but still has some similar bloodlines. He also has lighter colors in his face. Here he is:


Here is a blue roan stud that is owned by different people, about 30 mins away from me. They are now believing he has a grey gene in there as they tell people in his sale ad that he is exhibiting grey character in his face. He has produced a blue roan last year, and a blue and a bay roan this year. He is heavily Hancock bred. He is a 2004 model. Here he is:


This red roan is a filly I saw when she was born. She is out of a gorgeous red roan with a beautiful dark head, no roan or grey hairs in the dam's face at all. I now see this filly and I do not think she looks very roan anymore in her face. Her sire is a blue roan but i have never seen the stud and he is from Nebraska area. This filly lives over an hour from me. Again a different owner as any of the ones above, but a good example of what i am referring to. Hancock lines in this filly also, including Gooseberry on her dam's papers. Blue Valentine on the sires side also. Here she is:

[Rumonek]

None of the stallions are blue roans, and the mare SURELY isn't a blue roan. Roans have dark heads and legs, and none of these horses have that. I say first stud-Grey, Mare-Grey, third stud, I'm not quite sure. I don't know enough about roan to answer honestly.

[ToveroMom]

Those adult horses are all greys IMO.

[HighHorse]

Does this help?

http://www.grullablue.com/colors/roangenetics.htm#gray

[ToveroMom]

Here is a pic of a filly that would have been roan BUT one parent was grey and so is she-note the face..

That is why I hate grey broodstock...

[Bandit]

I've seen people call grey horses roans before. Its a common mistake - especially in lines that take longer to grey-out than others. I would say all those are greys.

As to the palomino filly - foals with the cream gene can have blue eyes at birth that slowly darken. It sounds like your filly's eyes are in a transition period.

[BeckysWylie]

The eye color is what I was thinking, but it is a head scratcher since all the other dilute colored foals I have seen this year are all brown eyed already, and then the comments. I thought I woulod ask.

As for the grey/roans. That is what I thought, they are grey. But if you make a grey comment to the owners, they all get VERY upset and swear up and down that they are roan and "true" roans at that. The red roan filly above is out of a red roan mom and a blue stud. Again, I have NOT seen the stud but all his other foals appear to be true roans, and bluer and bay roans at that. They all exhibit perfect dark heads and other roan character. But the stud out of the grey mare is the one that confises me. Maybe roan that went grey? Is this common for Hancock horses? Makes me wonder if they were all grey that were slow to grey out. The mare has classic Hancock lines and big named ones at that. I don't see a grey horse in her pedigree unless they were registered as roans that went grey. The sire of the stallion is chestnut out of all chestnut parents on the top side.

[breburtch]

Yes those horses are all greys and unless they have been tested the owners can swear up and down and back agian all they want but without being tested to carry the genes then you can't go buy what they say/think.

If you look all the "roans" have greying around there eyes and other parts of there face aswell as other parts of there body's if they were actual roans they would not have the greying like that

[cowgirlspurs]

One of the truest characteristics of a REAL roan is scars...no matter where they cut themselves the hair grows in solid coloured-black on blue roans, bay on bay roans and red on red roans.

1st horse 100% grey-a grey horse typically will loose its base coat colour last in the legs and mane and tail-this horse is well on its way-you can see teh scattering of grey hairs everywhere at these points.

His mare-bonified flea bitten GREY. These horses have a whole seperate set of rules for changing colour, due to the scatterings of base coat colour not only on the body but along the mane and tail the main and tail are intermittent colours.

3rd horse-greying
4th horse-grey

[SACREDWINDWALKER]

Originally Posted by cowgirlspurs

One of the truest characteristics of a REAL roan is scars...no matter where they cut themselves the hair grows in solid coloured-black on blue roans, bay on bay roans and red on red roans.

1st horse 100% grey-a grey horse typically will loose its base coat colour last in the legs and mane and tail-this horse is well on its way-you can see teh scattering of grey hairs everywhere at these points.

His mare-bonified flea bitten GREY. These horses have a whole seperate set of rules for changing colour, due to the scatterings of base coat colour not only on the body but along the mane and tail the main and tail are intermittent colours.

3rd horse-greying
4th horse-grey

Ditto....to all that was said..... If a parent has a grey factor, then it's gray....my mare was a dapple buckskin but registered gray because at age 2-3 yrs, she turned gray.....you know her (Mercedes)....

[cook1745]

I have to agree they all look grey to me BUT they very well could have been blue roans are first but had the grey gene and has since greyed out!!!

[MOOSE1]

I know nothing about roans other than the Appaloosa side of things. So I won't even try on that one.

With the Champagne yes pictures would help. Even pics of the sire and dam would be great as well. Does she have any of the freckled skin around her muzzle or eyes?

There is a form of a Champagne color that some mistake for a palamino. That is why it would be interesting to see her dam and such as well. Go to this website: http://www.ichregistry.com/ very informative and will give you your answer if she is a true champagne. She does have to have a champagne parent though. With Champgane being a fairly new color it could be possible that her dam is but no on really ever realized it.

Good luck and I can't wait to see her pics!

[kaykay]

After seeing the pictures I do agree those horses are going grey. But i do believe they are also carrying the roan gene. This is why most do not want to mix grey with roan, appy or pinto. There is a test now for grey so they could be tested. All of them are getting grey (white) hairs in the manes and tails and that is the grey gene.

The last filly is a typical roan with head darker then body.

[BeckysWylie]

Here are pics of my filly, these are very much outdated! I haven't had a chance to go get pics today yet. But for now, here they are. I think only one pic has a close up of the eye color. But the coat color along with the eye color is what is making everyone thing she is a champagne. I honestly do not think mom is a champagne horse, she looks pretty palominbo to me, lol. But is there a gene that can cause it? The mare has had 13 foals previously including thsi filly and she has thrown sorrels, bays, duns, buckskins and palominos on dun, sorrel and bay stallions. She also tested homozygous for the agouti gene (black points) I didn't think a champagne could do that, but I don't know much about dilute colors.

Here is her sire, I think he is wet in th epic, he is a chestnut with over 50% roaning and he throws the roaning 50% of the time onhis offspring.



Her dam, taken last year, and the other was taken the day her filly was born, for color comparison: (pic with filly, yes mom has put on weight! If anyone followed the foal watch she took this pregnancy very hard and it took her days to snap out of it. The mare has been retired from breeding by the way. I bought her bred so the filly was not the result of my breeding program)





pics of the filly the day she was born:






These were 10 days old:






These were July 28th and the other I forgot to label the date, but they were probably around the same time frame:



I will try and get the recent ones today, it is sunny outside and she is 50% the light color still and 50% chocolate, she is still shedding and the more she sheds the darker she is getting, she will shed a chocoloate. Hope these help some.

[reiningfan]

The chestnut stud looks like a rabicano to me.
Our buckskin mare has amber eyes. They're kinda cool.

[MOOSE1]

Yes a champagne can be AA for Augoti. From the pictures of your filly I would say she is just taking time for her eyes to change color. She doesn't look Champagne to me. Just my thoughts....But from the pics it is hard to tell for sure as they are a bit far away and blured...

[Soliae]

Definitely does not look champagne. You have yourself a palomino.

The sire isn't a roan, but may have rabicano, which causes some white hairs in the coat, especially around the trailhead and flank. Sabino can also cause white hairs to be interspersed in the coat. Neither are roan.