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Old 10-18-2005, 08:10 PM  
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"Linebreeding" vs. "Inbreeding"

What would you consider linebreeding, and what would you consider inbreeding? I know that linebreeding is generally considered a good thing, but how far can you take it? I have seen horses bred to their half siblings, to their sire or dam's siblings, etc.... what is okay? What are the risks involved?

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Old 10-18-2005, 09:31 PM  
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I studied this topic in college for what seemed to be FOREVER! I'll look in my books tomorrow and and post whatever I can find about it!
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Old 10-18-2005, 09:41 PM  
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I don't know the particulars on this subject, but it happens a lot with minis. I own horses who are related and would never dream of breeding them to one another. Animals in the wild who breed with siblings etc. Nature takes care of their offspring on her own I don't want to tamper with mother nature too much. So, I don't like to see a horses name more that twice on papers. But, thats just me. I would like to however hear the particulars on this subject! Good topic Tiggy
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Old 10-18-2005, 10:33 PM  
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Hm.. well frankly I haven't seen a lot of "inbreeding" in horses. I have mainly seen that crop up a lot in dogs. That may be due to the much shorter turnaround on babies and new litters etc. And in that case I have seen a couple times where the breeder said they were trying to "linebreed" to get a specific color but to me.. linebreeding you may have a stud or a mare on both sides of a pedigree.. and possibly in 3 lines out of 4 somewhere.. but in this case (one generation back) they actually bred a girl back to her dad.. and that is not linebreeding that is inbreeding. Not to mention they had him on two branches of the other half of the pedigree. That is just way too much love kids. And frankly.. it showed in the pups he got. Not only did he not get the perfect color he wanted.. the male was very disproportionate (aka ugly) and the female had bad hips at 2years old. Those things just seem to eventually come back and bite you in the pocketbook. Just doesnt seem worth it.
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Old 10-18-2005, 10:58 PM  
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Linebreeding and inbreeding are diferent words for basically the same thing.

When you breed two closely related horses in hopes of strengthening good traits, and you are succesful, that's linebreeding.

When you breed two closely related horses and wind up reinforcing all the bad traits, that's inbreeding.

As I understand it, when you breed closely related horses (or any animal, for that matter) you have one chance in four of producing an exceptionally good foal, one chance in four of producing a cull, and one chance in two of producing a foal that is an average of the parents.

I could be remembering this wrong, though.
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Old 10-18-2005, 11:11 PM  
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Inbreeding and line breeding are practiced a LOT in chickens. But please don't ask me to explain it, Mr. T says it way better than I ever could.

I have a lot of line bred birds, they tend to be a typier (sp) and a lot less variation between siblings (which is wonderful if your birds are really good, then you don't have so many wasted birds.) But because they are chickens not horses, if you have a major genetic defect it is not a big deal.

Now we have had several inbred dogs before-ugh.

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Old 10-18-2005, 11:16 PM  
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Well I suppose I could have been more specific.. Inbreeding is a type of linebreeding, but linebreeding is not necessarily inbreeding.

Inbreeding traditionally refers to breeding a colt to his dam, filly to sire, or filly to directly related colt etc.. there are many sorts of combinations but it is a direct breeding of related animals.

Linebreeding is the breeding of animals that share the same lines.. they may both be grandkids of Punky or whatever.. but their general lines are the same but they arent directly related. Breeding two "Impressive" horses for instance.. that doesnt mean they are both directly out of impressive, but have him in their pedigree, usually one or two gen back.. would be line breeding.. and is a very common practice..and really is why we have these lines of horses that you can recognize as specific.

Strict and intensive line-breeding can produce just as much crap as directly in-breeding.. and in-breeding has produced some of the foundation horses for certain breeds (arabs come to mind). Neither is evil on its own I suppose.. but are they really necessary?
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Old 10-19-2005, 04:16 AM  
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I read somwhere that after the 3 rd or 4th generation, everything is gone from that horse. So if you really want influance from a certain horse it needs to be within the 3 rd or 4th generation. So, if that is the case, alot of the line breeding doesn't really matter??
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Old 10-19-2005, 04:39 AM  
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I always understood that if the pedigree was 50% or more the same on both sides, it was inbreeding.

If it was less than 50% the same on both sides, it was line breeding...

But that was dogs...

I dunno... for something that humans feel so strongly against, you'd think we would understand what it is exactly that we oppose!?!?
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Old 10-19-2005, 05:39 AM  
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line breeding and in breeding

I agree with Mr. T...from what I understand, if it works, it's Linebreeding, if it fails, it's inbreeding!

In my opinion, a horse that has relatives on both sides as close as 3 generations back is "over related". The thing to remember is this, not only are physical characteristics inherited, bad or good, but so are mental characteristics...at least in my experience. So, if you are buying a horse that has been bred from direct relations, you should research the personalities of the parents, just to see. If you have lazy bred to lazy, you might get a horse that's DOUBLE lazy!

My only real opinion is that I would rather have an outcrossed horse with no possibilities of genetic defects appearing.
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Old 10-19-2005, 06:01 AM  
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There is a breeder in my area who likes the inbeeds. He has a beautifull stallion, and he thinks he can take the "junk" out of the mares by inbreeding. He has bred this horse back to it's mother, sisters, and aunts. He could be grandsire, sire, and brother to the same horse. That's just wrong. All the offspring are crazy, they are the type of horses that hurt people. The filly we recently bought has some of the same blood on both sides, but to find the same horse you have to go back 6 generations. They are from seperate lines of the same horse.
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Old 10-19-2005, 06:17 AM  
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Well in normal situations we would not buy or breed close relatives, but we purchased 3 fillys that on there sire side were inbred, as in brother and sister bred resulting in stud! Whom is there sire. It was not a intentional breeding just some old guy that had about 40 horses all together and it happened. The stallion is beautiful! He has a great personality, etc. And our three fillys are great, the sweetest, kindess, girls I have ever been around! And they are all correct conformation wise. They have only one fault, and it is that they are a little short, but they are also foundation bred, so they will only be 14'2 to 15 hands. Just thought I would let ya no bout my girls!
Here is a pic of one of them!
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Old 10-19-2005, 08:21 AM  
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Inbreeding
The mating of individuals who are more closely related than the average individuals in a population. Inbreeding increases homozygosity in the population but it does not change gene frequency.

Linebreeding
A mild form of inbreeding that maintains a high genetic relationship to an outstanding ancestor.

Because inbreeding is the mating of related animals, the resulting inbred offspring have an increased homozyosity of gene pairs compared to noninbred animals in the same population (breed or herd). There are 2 different kinds of inbreeding, one being linebreeding and the other being intensive breeding.

Linebreeding is used to make the genetics traits of an ancestor shine, usually being the sire. This mating system is best used by seedstock producers who have high levels of genetic superiority in their herds and find it difficult to locate sires that are superior to the ones they are raising in their herds.

Occasionally a breeder may produce a sire with a superior combination of genes that consistently produces high producing offspring. Some of these sires may not be outproduced by younger sires. This is observed in some dairy bulls that remain competitively superior as long as they produce semen. These sires warrant use in a linebreeding program.

An example of linebreeding...

Impressive, an outstanding QH stallion, is linebred to his ancestor, Three Bars, by three separate pathways. The inbreeding of Impressive is approx. 9%, whereas the genetic relationship of Impressive to Three Bars is approx. 44%. Inbreeding below 20% is considered low, whereas a genetic relationship is high when it approaches 50%.

Impressive has nearly the same genetic relationship as if Three Bars had been his sire (44% verses 50%). Progeny of Impressive have produced outstanding records, particularly as halter-point and working-point winners in the show ring. Unfortunately, Impressive has also been identified as a carrier of the gene that leads to HYPP, the result of a genetic mutation originated with Impressive.

Source: Scientific Farm Animal Production

I personally would rather crossbreed my animals than inbreed or linebreed. It's just a lot more healthier. Genetic mutations in animals that have been inbred are quite frequent. Only on rare occasions do the genes match up just right and you end up with a superior animal as with Impressive and even Secritariet I believe...
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Old 12-02-2010, 05:49 AM  
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It's just a question of percentage, the consanguinity can be low or high and it is called linebreeding or inbreeding. Here is how to compute this percentage in details:
http://www.braquedubourbonnais.info/...alculation.htm
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Old 12-02-2010, 10:01 AM  
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It is a pretty common practice in Arabs, in fact is has been for many generations, even going back to bedouin days, this is how they "secured" their strain "types", and it has continued, and is still done, many of the foundation breeding horses seen in todays pedigrees are from interbred stock, Raffles was a son, and grandson of Skowronek, Ferzon was produce by breeding half bro, to half sis, so both of his grandsires were same horse, and 3 of his 4 great grandsires were same horse, his dam line was related as well, Wisdom was a son, and grandson of Bask, also related slightly in dam line, he was a great horse, and was siring many good horses in his young life, but was tragically killed in a barn fire when quite young.

Line breeding is basically less intense than in-breeding, you will have the same horse, perhaps several times in a pedigree, but usually 2nd generation and back farther, the blood is more "diluted" , in-breeding ( and a horse can be line, and in-bred, sometimes having 5-6 crosses close, and far back ) but in-breeding would be full bro/full sis, father/daughter, etc. the purpose is to "lock in" certain attributes, so you will know, or have a pretty good idea of what you are getting, it makes breeding less of a "crap shoot" and more of a "designed plan" it will also let you know often what each horse will/won't throw/produce, so you can breed a mare according to what you want to correct/improve with her.....it greatly improves the prepotency of a horse in other words.

The main rules of this kind of breeding, told/taught to me by exp'd owners/breeders, is that you MUST "CULL" the undesirables out of the breeding pool...with no exceptions, as genetic defiencies will be bred out this way, and will become much less common, but to do this means being very careful, and commited to a long term goal, and it must be followed closely.....as you do not want to "cull" certain ones, only to allow them into someone else's hands, who will breed them on without care.....which unfortunately often happens, especially in larger breeding operations.
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Old 12-02-2010, 11:51 AM  
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This is an old thread, but still pertinent.

Without linebreeding, or inbreeding, if you will, there would be no breeds.

As Ahararab said, the key to it is strict culling.

Constant outcrossing results in very unpredictable offspring - not the way great lines are made. Even if a superior individual shows up, without then linebreeding back to them, that superiority is diluted back to average.
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Old 12-02-2010, 02:02 PM  
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Originally Posted by QuarterCowGirl View Post
Inbreeding
Inbreeding increases homozygosity in the population but it does not change gene frequency.
I also realize that this is an old thread, but I think that this phrase bears repeating. I get so frustrated when inbreeding is looked at as some sort of evil magic wand. It is still just genetics. Inbreeding and line-breeding merely create offspring that have more uniform genotypes. This is why genetic defects appear. Those same genetic defects can appear from normal breeding, you just don't know where they are coming from, and are unable to predict it prior to mating. Responsible line-breeding would require, as ahabarabs pointed out constant culling of animals that carry undesirable characteristics. In that manner, those undesirable characteristics can be completely eliminated from a bloodline. Unfortunately, that is a VERY long term goal, especially for something as slow maturing as a horse. Further, unlike an animal such as a chicken, that most people are comfortable using the culls for meat, and thus completely eliminating them from the gene pool, horses are viewed as pets, so most people (myself included) would not be as capable to cull out the animals that had undesirable characteristics.
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Old 12-02-2010, 02:17 PM  
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I also realize that this is an old thread, but I think that this phrase bears repeating. I get so frustrated when inbreeding is looked at as some sort of evil magic wand. It is still just genetics. Inbreeding and line-breeding merely create offspring that have more uniform genotypes. This is why genetic defects appear. Those same genetic defects can appear from normal breeding, you just don't know where they are coming from, and are unable to predict it prior to mating. Responsible line-breeding would require, as ahabarabs pointed out constant culling of animals that carry undesirable characteristics. In that manner, those undesirable characteristics can be completely eliminated from a bloodline. Unfortunately, that is a VERY long term goal, especially for something as slow maturing as a horse. Further, unlike an animal such as a chicken, that most people are comfortable using the culls for meat, and thus completely eliminating them from the gene pool, horses are viewed as pets, so most people (myself included) would not be as capable to cull out the animals that had undesirable characteristics.
Culling does not mean killing. It means "not breeding", which of course is easier to do with the stallions than with the mares. A really scrupulous breeder will make sure his less- than- stellar stallions are gelded, and the nothing- special mares are not bred perhaps by withholding papers. That being said, a mare can only affect maybe 15 (?) horses in her lifetime. A stallion, on the other hand can have quite an effect on a greater number of offspring, so their genetic worth needs even closer scrutiny.

So- what are your goals as a breeder? Are you out to create a line, and improve or stabilize excellence, or just produce something that is useful to you and that will be it? Big questions....
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Old 12-02-2010, 04:56 PM  
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Culling does not mean killing. It means "not breeding", which of course is easier to do with the stallions than with the mares. A really scrupulous breeder will make sure his less- than- stellar stallions are gelded, and the nothing- special mares are not bred perhaps by withholding papers. That being said, a mare can only affect maybe 15 (?) horses in her lifetime. A stallion, on the other hand can have quite an effect on a greater number of offspring, so their genetic worth needs even closer scrutiny.

So- what are your goals as a breeder? Are you out to create a line, and improve or stabilize excellence, or just produce something that is useful to you and that will be it? Big questions....

I do realize that culling does not necessarily mean killing. But once someone else takes over the care of an animal, one cannot be sure that animal is never bred. (Unless of course, it has been fixed before leaving, which is fine for stallions, but not so much for mares.) Mares do have a limited influence on a breed as a whole, but after several generations, that influence grows substantially. Even with animals such as dogs, I do not believe in neutering puppies, so for me a puppy cannot be fixed before it goes to its new home. Spay and neuter contracts can only go so far. They do not mean that someone WON'T ever breed. Even if the breeder keeps an animal to prevent it from ever being bred, that doesn't completely solve the problem. The breeder then is limited from producing that line further, due to their resources being used for the culls.

Don't get me wrong. I am not arguing against line-breeding. I certainly think that it has its place. Just stating both sides, and that the drawbacks aren't what most point to. The Bedouin's were very successful in line-breeding their horses, but I would propose that was largely due to their devotion to it over many (human) generations.
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Old 12-02-2010, 05:10 PM  
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You are right - you cannot guarantee another person's behavior. But you do the best you can with the tools you have. Otherwise, no one would get anywhere with breeding anything....

As far as dogs go, the spay neuter contracts do work with most people. There will always be those who take advantage of a situation, and lie, but at least in my breed, I have found those to be few and far between. And withholding papers or giving limited reg. until proof of neutering or spaying is usually pretty effective. I even use limited reg. with the show prospects, so that I can be sure that the pup and the owner lives up to their promises before awarding full reg. With the dogs I keep as prospects that don't make the grade, they are usually neut. or spayed before leaving. ( People are always looking for adult Airedales so that they can avoid the pup stage )

So the "culling" has worked pretty well for me with dogs...
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