Base Colors and Color Genes 101

[BeverlyM]

I'm bringing this back to the top because I found an error in the color of the double dilute CRCR horses. Cremellos, perlinos, smokey cremes are all born with sky blue eyes not green. Champagnes however can have green eyes. The golds are born with blue which change to amber the ivory cremes change to a greenish color. Champagne is a dominate gene just like the creme gene if the horse carries it then it will be expressed

[jkj10209]

This is a very neat thread. Is it saved somewhere? I want to study it some more!

[muttduck]

Originally Posted by bev45

I'm bringing this back to the top because I found an error in the color of the double dilute CRCR horses. Cremellos, perlinos, smokey cremes are all born with sky blue eyes not green. Champagnes however can have green eyes. The golds are born with blue which change to amber the ivory cremes change to a greenish color. Champagne is a dominate gene just like the creme gene if the horse carries it then it will be expressed

bev... I have personally seen a cremello mare with green eyes, hence why I included it, but I will go back and make sure that I have the CRCR's typed right.

And jkj, this topic is right at the top of the breeding & genetics forum in a "stickie" so it is easily found.

[Slim Pikkens]

This is getting so confusing. All I know is my AQHA registered as bay is now technically a bay dun as he has the black dorsal stripe.

[paige5785]

Originally Posted by Slim Pikkens

This is getting so confusing. All I know is my AQHA registered as bay is now technically a bay dun as he has the black dorsal stripe.

I get confused as well. That's why I just post a thread and ask them to tell me what color my horses are/will be.

[julieo]

OK now I feel like a total idiot. What the heck is a horse registered cremello but having amber eyes? Champaign? That is what my colts dad is. So with an accidental breeding between half brother and sister a pale palomino out of chestnut mare and a grey out of a grey mare and both from the above creamello sire the foal might be grey if colt carries dominate grey gene Gand any recessive? Cream if he has Gc and passes the c to the dilute in his half sisters dilute or ? but will not be chestnut or palomino? or am I just totally missing the science? Since he is rose grey he is red based I assume. and she obviously has a dilute being a palomino but is also red based.
Do you have to get the gene testing done before breeding if you bred for color? Is that where homozygus for color horses are identified for breeding?

[muttduck]

Wow. That was confusing....

Can you break it down more, in a new topic so that it gets more attention?

List the colors of:
The sire?
Sire's parents?
Dam?
Dam's parents?

[Amy]

Just wanted to say thanks for the thread and the links. Very informative and interesting.

[girasol]

Originally Posted by muttduck

I'm adding this in here for easy reference. This is the link to the color calculator, where you can plug in your mare and stallion's colors and get a list of foal color possibilities.

http://www.animalgenetics.us/CCalculator1.asp

Now *that* is a useful little gadget! Because basically that's what everyone wants to know, right? Thanks for posting that link.

[diamondn]

Z gene
I find this site explains it fairly well

Equine Color - Silver Gene

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Slim Pikkens

This is getting so confusing. All I know is my AQHA registered as bay is now technically a bay dun as he has the black dorsal stripe.

Not necessarily, it could just be counter shading which is common in bays. Some bays have it, some don't. And the ones that do can range in shades and prominence. They can also have some primitive markings.

[Jodi G.]

I think your doing a Fabulous job educating people on genetics and color. As a Foundation Appaloosa breeder, I to am learning about the different combinations you can produce with 2 different horses...the many opitions that we have available to us. It started when I had a colt born and was not sure of his base coat color or what he could potentialy produce as a stud. Well he's a buckskin few spot. Knowing that buckskins are bays carrying the cream gene.
So on black based mares, he can produce: bays, palominos, chestnuts, and if the mare carries the cream also, he has the potential to produce perlinos and creamellos. Basically he has the potential to produce any color of foal depending on the base coat of the mare. He can produce the cream gene 'additions' which most other horses can't. His sire is a red leopard, so I believe he also has a lp gene to produce spots. As a 2 1/2 year old stud, he has not had any opportuntity to put his color options to work yet. <snipped by muttduck> Would be really interesting to see any final results.

[Horsie Michelle]

MuttDuck,

Genetics have always amazed me! What you put together is awsome! Being into Spotted Saddle Horses when I breed I breed for "spots" as well as gait. We just bred my mare today to a Homozygous black and white spotted TWH stud. He looks like the Tobiano on the bottom right of your post, while my mare looks like the one on the bottom left. Hopefully it took and I can't wait to see what drops!

A really good friend of mine stands her stud in TN (also a Spotted Saddle Horse). He got 5 or 6 babies on the groud from the last two years and it's amazing how different they look! He bred the same black and white mare twice (over the last three years) one is a blood bay and the other is tobiano (75white/25red). All of the foals are spotted, besides the bay. Even the one from the flea bitten mare. And they are all some form of red. Anyway I know she'll be intrested in your article...so I'll thank you n advance form her.

Oh yea, for everyone...I'm sorry in advance for any confusion over my use of "spotted" to refer to pinto mark ups. It a habit due to my involvement w/ my breed of choice.

[paint girl]

I have a sorrel overo mare that I would like to breed to a friends nice black overo stallion but she has crossed him with one of her own sorrel overo mares and that cross has produced a lethal white foal 2 years in a row . She is re-bred to a palomino QH stud this year. The stallion has only thrown a lethal white with this one mare out of her whole brood mare band. So I know that the lethal white gene is more prevalent in overo to overo crosses, so I talked to the lady who bred my mare and she said that she has never had a lethal white foal. My mare is out of a sorrel QH mare and a black overo stud. So is it the mare, stallion or both that carry the lethal white gene? Would there be a possibility of a lethal wihte foal with my mare? I have had my mare DNA tested but the results are not back yet and all I have on my other horses is a sticker with a reference number on it (AQHA).

[Orchid]

Originally Posted by paint girl

I have a sorrel overo mare that I would like to breed to a friends nice black overo stallion but she has crossed him with one of her own sorrel overo mares and that cross has produced a lethal white foal 2 years in a row . She is re-bred to a palomino QH stud this year. The stallion has only thrown a lethal white with this one mare out of her whole brood mare band. So I know that the lethal white gene is more prevalent in overo to overo crosses, so I talked to the lady who bred my mare and she said that she has never had a lethal white foal. My mare is out of a sorrel QH mare and a black overo stud. So is it the mare, stallion or both that carry the lethal white gene? Would there be a possibility of a lethal wihte foal with my mare? I have had my mare DNA tested but the results are not back yet and all I have on my other horses is a sticker with a reference number on it (AQHA).

Yes, there would be a possibility of a lethal white foal breeding your overo mare to the overo stallion. Your friend doesn't need to test her stallion, she now knows for certain he carries the lethal white gene. And why she would have crossed those two a second time is beyond me but that's beside the point. If your mare should on the off chance test negative for the OLWS gene, you could safely breed her to your friend's stallion. If she tests positive, you will have a 25% chance of a lethal foal.

[paint girl]

Thanks Orchid. I don't know why she crossed those two the second time either!

So what you're saying is that her stallion carries the lethal white gene as a recessive trait? Then her mare too, would also have to carry that gene in order for the foal to be born with lethal white. That would expain why all of her other foals are ok but are now potential carriers of the gene? Am I getting this right??

[step n starstruck]

Lethal white is basically a homozygous Overo. Heterozygous LWS carriers are (N/L). Non carriers are (N/N). There have been no living horse tested (L/L).

The disease has a similar etiology to Hirschsprung's disease in humans. A mutation in the middle of the Endothelin receptor type B (EDNRB) gene causes Lethal White Syndrome when homozygous. Carriers, who are heterozygous, that is, have one copy of the mutated allele, but themselves are healthy, can now be reliably identified with a DNA test. Both parents must be carriers of one copy of the LWS allele in order for an affected foal to be born.

Horses that are heterozygous for the gene that causes LWS often exhibit a spotted coat color pattern commonly known as "frame" or "frame overo." Coat color alone does not always indicate the presence of LWS, or carrier status, however. The frame pattern may be minimally expressed or masked by other spotting patterns.

There also are different genetic mechanisms which produce healthy white foals and have no connection to LWS; another reason for genetic testing of potential breeding stock. Though there is no treatment or cure for LWS foals, a white foal without LWS that appears ill may have a treatable condition.

There is an extended article here: http://www.apha.com/breed/lethalwhites03.html

[Orchid]

Originally Posted by paint girl

Thanks Orchid. I don't know why she crossed those two the second time either!

So what you're saying is that her stallion carries the lethal white gene as a recessive trait? Then her mare too, would also have to carry that gene in order for the foal to be born with lethal white. That would expain why all of her other foals are ok but are now potential carriers of the gene? Am I getting this right??

You are absolutely correct on all counts.

[dodib]

I know this is way late looking at this but wanted to say I wish you were at my daughters 4H meeting last week. Her leader tried to explain colors to the girls and I was just cringing...
when it came to base colors she said black, brown, buckskin, also sorrel and chestnut are different colors etc.....about 12 in all. I did say no sorrel and chestnut are genetically the same but some registrys refer to one or the other
when we got in the car i said to my daughter forget everythign she just told you!! She does not know color genetics at all!!!!

[justjumpit2]

Hey everyone I have a ton on information on my website about the cream gene!